round 1, why paul is false, by @AllenEreaux on @AnonymousChristian matthew 24 indicates that if someone says they met yahushua in the wilderness, do not believe them. yahushua appeared before some people before ascending, then ascended. paul claims to have met him in the wilderness. so that obviously is not yahushua in the wilderness. but it indicates it is yahushua, which means that it is (either "the" or "an") antichrist. paul was basically sent by this antichrist, not by the real yahushua. apostle means messenger, or sent. so paul is a false apostle. paul did not bring yahushua's message, but instead preached his own, which attempted to undermine yahushua's message and deceive, if possible, the elect. if you compare yahushua's salvation teachings to paul's, they are different. they may sound similar, but they are very different. yahushua taught that not everyone who says "lord, lord" will enter heaven, but those who do yahweh's will. paul said to say "jesus is lord" and "believe in your heart" (not in your actions, just in your heart). ephesus rejected paul. in rev 2:2, yahushua commends the ephesians for rejecting him who calls himself an apostle. paul called himself an apostle at the beginning of many of his letters. if you study yahushua, and yahweh, apart from paul, then i think you will see many differences. 12 apostles are named by yahushua, and there are 12 in revelation, not 13. paul was a pharisee. what did yahushua say about pharisees? didn't he call them a brood of vipers? paul murdered stephen. should i not know him by his fruit? paul was of the tribe of benjamin, a wolf. yahushua warned us of wolves in sheep's clothing. round 2, response @AnonymousChristian Anonymous Christian @AnonymousChristian 2h · · Christian Memes and Conversation @AllenEreaux thank you for sharing your perspective, but you may not enjoy your conversation with me much now, but I promise to always keep it polite and Christ like 🙂 With that said, let’s address these points with respect and understanding: Paul's Encounter with Jesus: The reference in Matthew 24 warns against those who claim the Messiah is physically present in a hidden location. Paul's encounter on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:3-6) was a vision, not a physical meeting. He never claimed to have met a physically present Jesus in the wilderness. Paul's Message vs. Jesus' Message: While there are distinctions in their teachings, the core message remains consistent: salvation through faith. Jesus emphasized deeds as evidence of faith (Matthew 7:21), while Paul highlighted faith as the foundation (Romans 10:9). They're two sides of the same coin. Ephesus and Paul: Revelation 2:2 commends the Ephesians for testing those who claimed to be apostles. It doesn't specify Paul. In fact, Paul's letter to the Ephesians is filled with deep theological truths that align with Christ's teachings. The Number of Apostles: The 12 apostles in Revelation represent the 12 tribes of Israel. Paul's apostleship doesn't negate the original 12; he considered himself an apostle to the Gentiles (Romans 11:13). Paul's Background: Yes, Paul was a Pharisee, but his transformation showcases God's grace. Jesus did warn against the hypocrisy of some Pharisees, but He also dined with them and engaged in discussions. Paul's past persecution of Christians (Acts 8:1) is a testament to the transformative power of Christ. Remember, many biblical figures had flawed pasts but were used mightily by God. Tribe of Benjamin: While Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin (Philippians 3:5), it's a leap to label him a "wolf." The Bible uses metaphors, but context is crucial. Jesus' warning about "wolves in sheep's clothing" (Matthew 7:15) was about false prophets, not a specific tribe. You certainly have some unique views, but I don’t believe they stand up to the scrutiny of scripture. However, I’m open to hear your thoughts. debate round 3, my reponse to your response to my original post explaining how paul is a false apostle. 1. your account of matt 24 is not accurate. matt 24 doesn't mention "physical presence" as opposed to a spiritual presense. ----- matthew 24:23-29 WES ( ----- “Then if any man tells you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There!’ don’t believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones. “Behold, I have told you beforehand. “If therefore they tell you, ‘Behold, he is in the wilderness,’ don’t go out; or ‘Behold, he is in the inner rooms,’ don’t believe it. For as the lightning flashes from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, that is where the vultures gather together. ---------- i believe what i said about it is accurate because if yahushua visited paul, then from matthew 24, i expect that yahushua simultaneously visited *everyone* else. what i said: "matthew 24 indicates that if someone says they met yahushua in the wilderness, do not believe them." i trust yahushua in matthew 24, and so i am on guard for when someone claims they met yahushua after his ascension. 2. the core messages are not consistent. matt 7:21 does not mention faith at all or even allude to it. it says 'do the will' of yahweh. when yahushua is asked another time (to corroborate) about what must be done to have eternal life, he answered plainly "keep the commandments". matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’ matthew 19:16-17 Behold, one came to him and said, “Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” He said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, Elohim the Father. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” "belief" in john 3:16 means 'obedience unto', not a mere cognitive admission. 3. paul wrote to ephesus and they rejected him, he even admitted it. so when yahushua said in rev 2:2 that the ephesians rejected a person who called himself an apostle, who do you think yahushua was referring to? yahushua doesn't have to name paul, because yahweh tests us, and i believe this issue is a test regarding whether we will obey yahweh's commandments or not. deu 8:2 You shall remember all the way which Yahweh your Elohim has led you these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not. but if you want to see yahushua prophetically warn us of paul by name, well... check the relationship betweeh matthew 5:19 and the fact that paul in latin means least. douglas del tondo wrote up an article or made a video on this issue, which i don't know as well as he does, so if you want to know more on this, check with his stuff. 4. yahushua told the real apostles not to go to "the gentiles". matthew 10:5-6 Yahushua sent these twelve out and commanded them, saying, “Don’t go among the Gentiles, and don’t enter into any city of the Samaritans. Rather, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 5. so you disagree with matthew 7:15-16 ? “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. By their fruits you will know them. so you say, i shall not know them by their fruits? surely there are men who have not murdered yahweh's people for the sake of them being yahweh's people, who i might be able to learn something from. why go so low as to build your life not on the rock, but on the sand of this pharisee and murderer? is it not because it is in "the b-i-b-l-e" (the name of a false idol), which was instituted by rome like how d.c. and dominion machines instituted biden. you're on the side of the evil empire, and perhaps you don't even know it yet. to ensure life apart from obedience to yahweh is the oldest trick in the book, literally. so repent! return to the torah, and obey it! yes, david sent bathsheeba's man to get killed in battle. but david was not trying to kill bathsheeba's man for being a man of yahweh. and i don't even put david's sayings as a priority in my life, except perhaps some psalms, which praise yahweh and depending on which psalm may be prophetic. and david is a chosen line, for christ, isn't he? he is not a pharisee or sadducee, or benjaminite. 6. obviously i know that "beware of wolves in sheep's clothing" is a metaphor, but so is "benjamin is a wolf". 7. unfortunately we don't agree on what is scripture. why do you trust athanasius of alexandria's list of 66 books that he sent to rome? does the number 66 sound good to you? do you trust rome? why don't you just trust yahweh and yahushua? why do you instead trust man? and if you think to yourself that you love yahweh, then why don't you love yahweh by obeying his commands? do you think his commands are not relevant? do you prefer paul's words? if so, why do you disobey the 1st commandment and put paul as an elohim before yahweh? personally, i am working on the topic of why believers in yahushua should obey the commands given to the children of israel in torah. i have found a lot of good verses that answer my questions about what we should do - that we should obey all the commands... who should obey torah law, ordinances, etc.? --- part 1 --- gen 17:7-8 I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be an Elohim to you and to your offspring after you. I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are traveling, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession. I will be their Elohim. who today is abraham's offspring? gen 12:49 One law shall be to him who is born at home, and to the stranger who lives as a foreigner among you. exo 20:2-3 I am Yahweh your Elohim, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other elohims before me. did yahweh bring you out of egypt? if not, do you think that yahweh wants you to obey the 10 commandments? why? exo 20:5-6 I, Yahweh your Elohim, am a jealous Elohim, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. who are "those", and what does it mean to keep his commandments? john 3:16 For Elohim so loved the world, that he gave his only born Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. whoever means everyone, so what does it mean to believe? mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. what is yahweh's will? hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings. how can one gain knowledge of elohim, to know what he wants? would he prefer a person keep a kosher diet? would he prefer a person not keep a kosher diet? would he prefer a person make tassels to remember his commands? would he prefer a person not make tassels to remember his commands? what is his will? rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of Elohim and the faith of Yahushua. doesn't "those" here mean anyone? what does it mean to keep the commandments? isaiah 56:6-8 Also the foreigners who join themselves to Yahweh to serve him, and to love Yahweh’s name, to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it, and holds fast my covenant, I will bring these to my set-apart mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples.” The Lord Yahweh, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, “I will yet gather others to him, in addition to his own who are gathered.” ---------- part 2 ---------- torah obedience for believers in yahushua? why? what does scripture indicate? what do messianic people say?... pro-torah observance. sacrifices? pro tassels, pro-torah except also anti-torah: they believe that some of torah has been "set-aside", pro-paulianity pro-torah...? jer 31.31 “Behold, the days come,” says Yahweh, “that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, which covenant of mine they broke, although I was an owner to them,” says Yahweh. who is the new covenant with? is the new covenant with "gentiles"? exo 12.49 One law shall be to him who is born at home, and to the stranger who lives as a foreigner among you.” exo 12:49, in paragraph Yahweh said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover. No foreigner shall eat of it, but every man’s servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then shall he eat of it. A foreigner and a hired servant shall not eat of it. It must be eaten in one house. You shall not carry any of the meat outside of the house. Do not break any of its bones. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. When a stranger lives as a foreigner with you, and would like to keep the Passover to Yahweh, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it. He shall be as one who is born in the land; but no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. One law shall be to him who is born at home, and to the stranger who lives as a foreigner among you.” All the children of Israel did so. As Yahweh commanded Moses and Aaron, so they did. That same day, Yahweh brought the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies. num 15.16, in paragraph “ ‘All who are native-born shall do these things in this way, in offering an offering made by fire, of a pleasant aroma to Yahweh. If a stranger lives as a foreigner with you, or whoever may be among you throughout your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a pleasant aroma to Yahweh, as you do, so he shall do. For the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the stranger who lives as a foreigner, a statute forever throughout your generations. As you are, so the foreigner shall be before Yahweh. One law and one ordinance shall be for you and for the stranger who lives as a foreigner with you.’ ” deu 8:2 You shall remember all the way which Yahweh your Elohim has led you these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not. eze 36:27 I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes. You will keep my ordinances and do them. eze 36:24-30 “ ‘ “For I will take you from among the nations and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes. You will keep my ordinances and do them. You will dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers. You will be my people, and I will be your Elohim. I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and will multiply it, and lay no famine on you. I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field, that you may receive no more the reproach of famine among the nations. isa 66.15-16 For Yahweh will execute judgment by fire and by his sword on all flesh; and those slain by Yahweh will be many. “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves to go to the gardens, following one in the middle, eating pig’s meat, abominable things, and the mouse, they shall come to an end together,” says Yahweh. isa 65 a people who provoke me to my face continually, sacrificing in gardens, and burning incense on bricks; who sit among the graves, and spend nights in secret places; who eat pig’s meat,